In Reply to: Re: my three cents posted by Michael Pope on January 21, 1999 at 15:33:28:

: : With respect for your point of view, I suppose that the Talossans would do

: : themselves a big favour, if they stopped baiting the readers of this discussion

: : group with insults.

Look fuckhead, you "bait" us with insults in each and every Penguinean web page and newspaper... but do we respond?

No‑‑because we're not idiots. We let you play your stupid games, and we give you all the attention you deserve, which is

none.

By contrast, you sit here obsessing over every word we post, carefully checking everything to make sure you can find

something that "offends" you, and then you let loose, in OUR forum, with insults and attacks.

If you don't like to read what we say, you can go somewhere else. In fact I would strongly recommend that you do.

It's clear you don't like Talossa, you don't like our people, you don't like what we have to say and you don't like what you

read on Wittenberg.

Fine! Ignore us.

: What happened here was Nick Bridgewater making annoying posts on Witt, trying to bait us. No‑one here had posted

anything about Nick before this, he just appeared out of the blue, again. In defending his unwelcome and intrusive posts, he

claimed he had a "right" to post whatever the heck he wants, since it is a "public" discussion group. So as for the "eternal

question" ‑ in this case Bridgewater started it, without doubt.

While all this is true, we must not forget the point that Wittenberg is "the TALOSSAN discussion group," according to Jon's

header.

No amount of foreign bug spamming or ignorant personal attacks should force us underground. We can say, as Talossans,

anything we want here. It is only our moral responsibility to tell the truth. But we can speak freely in OUR OWN FORUM.

If these bug idiots want to respond, they have THEIR OWN FORUMS in which to do so.

The only reason they do so here is because they want to advertise their stupid egg‑carton fiefdoms to a wider audience by

piggy‑backing on our success.

Dieter's "shut up or I'll spam you" threats only reveal either 1) that his own bug nation is a complete failure with nothing else

to do, or 2) that his own bug nation is bent on spamming and harassing Talossans as a matter of national policy.

Either way he and his cohorts are beneath contempt and should be treated with rudeness and hostility.

: : At least it's the eternal question, who started what. As long as your DG is

: : open for the public, you should be aware, that there is an audience,

An audience of idiots obsessed with Talossa, of which you are one.

: and

: : calling this audience names leads to the effect, that occasional readers

: : start feeling annoyed and want to defend themselves.

You can't stand the truth, can you? And you feel compelled to "defend" your spamming and your nasty behaviour. What a

dick.

: I will agree insofar as this: taunting micronationalists for no reason from an open DG is just asking for trouble. But I really

don't see that in this case ‑ absent provocation, we don't spend time discussing micronationalism or micronationalists. We

don't discuss them, we don't ridicule them, we don't obsess over them.

Michael is right‑‑if we ever mention bugs at all here, it's in response to their attacks on us and their plagiaristic and hostile

nature. But what makes Talossa really different‑‑and what you bug idiots absolutely can't stand!‑‑is that Talossa has "a life"

that doesn't involve you, bug nations, "intermicronational diplomacy," "relations," "treaties," and all that phony‑UN stuff that

gives you something to do in the absence of real democracy (which you don't have) and real culture (which your overlords

cooked up over a pot‑smoking weekend).

If you don't want us talking about you, Dieter, quit complaining about everything we do.

This has been going on for a year and a half now and it is UNBELIEVABLY BORING. But then again, I have no doubt

whatsoever that it is the official policy of your little group of spammers and haters to harass Talossans at every opportunity

and try to get a rise out of us; that's what you're about and we all accept that.

That much being said, you're still an ignorant, sock‑sucking ooze‑bag.

Go the hell home!

Ben

Name: Harold Thomas at 156.63.134.4 (156.63.134.4)

Date: January 22, 1999 at 08:11:24

Using Mozilla/4.5 [en] (Win95; I) software

In Reply to: Re: my three cents posted by R. Ben Madison on January 21, 1999 at 16:45:44:

I am requesting permission to address, in what I believe to be an objective, third‑party manner, the dispute that has long

troubled you.

In making this request, please note that I shall make no references to the micronation of which I am a part, nor to any

publication therein.

Harold Thomas

Name: Harold Thomas

E‑Mail: harold.thomas@worldnet.att.net

Subject: Re: Depart!

Body of Message:

: I for one object. I've read the ridiculous lies you've told about me and my country in your "newspaper" and I have no desire to

lend the publicity of Wittenberg to any of your verbal halitosis or any after‑the‑fact unctuous apology schemes. In your

association with known liars you are anything but "objective."

: Depart to from whence you came.

: Ben

Just a few questions:

What "ridiculous lies" have I told about you and your country in the article to which you refer? My "newspaper" would gladly

carry your unedited rebuttal.

I can see where my previous post might seem "unctuous" to you, but what do I have to apologize for (except this second

posting)?

Do you, Ben, deny that you "hold blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc." with respect to Penguinea? (this

is the definition of "bigotry" in Webster's New World Dictionary, Second College Edition. Why do you counsel everyone in your

country to ignore foreigners, yet yourself attack them in a manner that (given human nature) demands a reply, even resorting

to juvenile namecalling, as you did earlier in this thread? Surely, this is not conduct becoming to the King of a great nation!

And, for one who objects to others "lurking" in the Wittenburg, why were you reading the "newspaper" of a "bug nation"?

I am not interested either in "spamming" Talossa (which, in my view, would achieve no useful purpose), nor in inflaming your

already raw wounds over Penguinea. What I was hoping to do was to find a way on your end to break the vicious cycle.

Otherwise, you and Mr. Lawless will be at each other's throats, both here, and in the PDG, forever. Therefore, in the interest of

fairness, both to myself and to you, I am, at the risk of being called a bug‑nation spammer, linking the offending publication,

so that your people may judge for themselves. Please note that three letters were written in reply, which may (or may not) help

to clarify the issues.

I cannot speak for every one‑ego micronation, but those of us who are less evolved are interested in those which are more

evolved. Most reasonable micronations (including mine) have no desire to become pale copies of Talossa. Talossa offers

interesting and useful ideas, but we follow our own paths, try out our own political, social, cultural, and I suppose,

journalistic, experiments.

Ironic as it may seem, I do respect the right of your people to be left alone (which is why I am trying to pack everything into

one post), but I have a problem with offering a civil comment that is relevant to Talossa, only to be rebuffed in the rudest

possible manner. Again, I believe this is feeding a vicious cycle, similar (if less deadly) to those of crime and revenge between

the Serbians and the Albanians.

Harold D. Thomas

Name: Maxime at 207.253.206.220 (207.253.206.220)

Date: January 22, 1999 at 13:47:37

Using Mozilla/4.06 (Macintosh; I; PPC) software

In Reply to: The offending link... posted by Harold Thomas on January 22, 1999 at 13:31:36:

Azul,

Ben will probably said go away bug... Evan is very intelligent so he

act like the treaty work and when the treaty become dangerous for Penguinea he

burned it and said Chris doesn't send me a copy so gngngnan...

But the PC GOVERNEMENT is responsable for this. If Chris Gruber have done is job and

put a stamp on this treaty Penguins leader Evan and Anthony cannot said

after all the treaty is null and void.

PC governement fail and Madison doesn't like to see is arch‑ennemy Evan Gallagher

win so he said Evan lie gngngnan.

This is a way find by PC to keep opposition outside information. This is a tactic

use by USA with people in the Iraq war. In the world nobody is good at 100% and the others bad at 100%.

PC PD THE TREATY AND NAME PC MEMBER ON THE COMMITEE WITH PENGUINEA. SO THEY DON'T

WANT TO SHOW THEIR FAILURE AND SINCE OPPOSITION HAVE NO PROOVE OF THE PC FAIL, PC leader

GRUBER AND MADISON ALWAYS SAID PENGUINS ARE ONLY LIAR NAD PEOPLE VOTE PC.

Maxime

Name: Ián at 195.178.166.119 (195.178.166.119)

Date: January 22, 1999 at 15:36:04

Using Mozilla/4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC, Nav) software

In Reply to: Re: The offending link... posted by Maxime on January 22, 1999 at 13:47:37:

Max, Harold,

You both mean well, but please stop this now. There will be no official friendship

between Penguinea and Talossa, not for years to come and probably never. That is

fine. Penguinea isn't interested in official relations with other micros or with

nationettes, and Talossa doesn't give a damn about official relations with

micronations. So this whole exercise is completely meaningless. Just give it up

and stop scratching at the scab. I beg you.

Everyone can make friends wherever they want, but stop dragging Talossa as a

nation into it. I don't mind if non‑Talossans post here, but if you do it to drag

us into intermicronational politics, please lay it off.

‑Johan

Follow Ups:

Johan: (private e-mail to johan.anglemark@bahnhof.se)

I understand what you are saying, and I agree there will never be friendly relations between the two governments. Even if all was well between Talossa and Penguinea, there never would be, because diplomatic relations is contrary to the foreign policy of both countries. If Talossa had an "if you exist, you exist" policy, none of this with Penguinea would be going on.

My purpose for the Wittenberg post was to show that the principal source of the trouble lies with Ben himself. If he would follow his own advice and IGNORE the Penguineans and "bugs" (which means that no one, including him, would respond), the whole problem would end. You read the Penguinean Discussion Group. None of the regulars there are whipping it up against Talossa, possibly excepting Rick Harwood, but I think Rick is getting the message to quit from his own people. Nothing sinks a discussion group thread like silence!

Max's response makes it clear that Ben's real purpose has to do with domestic politics. So if others are disgusted with the "war", why is no one asking Ben to calm down?

Please be assured that I do not intend to post further to Wittenberg unless Ben wants to calmly discuss the issues I presented, which, unfortunately for all, seems unlikely. However, I thought it important that he be challenged on his own turf by someone who is not Penguinean, nor someone like Nick Bridgewater. I took it on for reasons already explained.

Harold

From: Johan Anglemark <johan.anglemark@bahnhof.se> Save Address Block Sender

To: "Jean Tisserand" <jtisserand@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: T vs P

Date: Sat, 23 Jan 99 13:27:59 +0100

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Thus spake Jean Tisserand at 99-01-22 22.51:

> Max's response makes it clear that Ben's real purpose has to do with

>domestic politics. So if others are disgusted with the "war", why is no

>one asking Ben to calm down?

Oh, we have. I do from time to time.

The problem has two main causes:

Ben likes to ridicule. He wants to be able to refer to Penguinea, Evan

and Lawless, in jocular, depreciatory terms. In other words, getting

Penguinea off the agenda has never been an object, only to be able to

badmouth and ridicule them without someone gainsaying Ben.

Ben honestly thinks Penguinea was founded just to spite Talossa and

himself personally, and in Anthony's case, this is partially true.

Thus Ben is so incensed by Penguineans posting on Witt, and genuinely

afraid people will believe what the Penguins are saying about him and

Talossa if he doesn't speak up, that he can't help replying.

Unfortunately, this is a domestic problem and my be solved

domestically. Few Talossans are able to distinguish between Dieter

Hamm, Shawn Knight, Harold Thomas and Rick Harwood. Either you're

Talossan or you're not. There are no such things as impartial

observers to the Patriotic Hawks in Talossa.

So you can only make matters worse, not better.

Cheers,

Johan

The Tisserand Museum
October, 2000