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ICQ Chat Save file
Started on Thu Aug 06 19:05:13 1998

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<Harold> Hello, Pedro!
<Pedro Aguiar> Hello, Harold!
<Harold> What brings you here this afternoon?
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> Well, the same as always... micronations business... :-)
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold>
<Harold> Of course, I hold no official position in Orange ... :-)
<Pedro Aguiar> This chat is one I invited you for a couple of weeks ago. (not yet, you mean :-) )
<Harold> picky, picky... :-)
<Harold>
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> What's that? "picky picky"?
<Pedro Aguiar> :-?
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold> It's a joking way that Americans would say that you are being very technical or bringing out a fine point... I hold no official position in Orange, it is true; and yes, I probably soon will have one (after the new Constitution is adopted).
<Harold>
<Harold> I just don't want to admit that I will have, just yet :-)
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> :) I see.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> Oops!
<Pedro Aguiar> Jean, :-), why don't you want Orange to sign a peace agreement with PC?
<Harold>
<Harold> Kingdom or Republic?
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> Of course, Jean, when I mean PC, I mean the Kingdom.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold> All right. I knew that.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> Then...
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> But Jean, they wanted that to be a republic!!! (argh!)
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold> The reason is that I do not recognize the legitimacy of the Kingdom. The people of Porto Claro voted in a free election (so far as I know) for a Republic. That is their right.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> No, that is NOT! IT WAS I who created PC, and I want PC to be a monarchy!
<Pedro Aguiar> It's just that simple: I held a coup d'état, they founded a new, illegitimate one.
<Harold> When you gave up the paper dolls, you gave up the right to control (by yourself) the destiny of the country. I warned you about that at the time.
<Harold>
<Harold> Do you really think anyone is going to believe you on that? I certainly don't.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> No, Jean, that is not true.
<Harold> The problem with micronations is that this kind of dispute can never really be settled as long as one party is unwilling to accept the will of the majority.
<Harold>
<Harold> If the majority of Portoclarians wanted a monarchy, why did the Republic come into being?
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> Jean, they could want a republic, it's their problem, just as most Russians didn't want a Communist government. The Bolsheviks held a coup, right? So did I.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> It is NOT their right, however, to follow on with MY (I repeat MY) micronation.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> But Jean, they didn't hold a plebiscite!
<Harold> Pedro, in my heart I sympathize with you, but in my head I have to still say, that if we are committed to human freedom, that if the majority of Portoclarians wanted a Republic, they had the right to it, regardless of how you, the founder felt about it. I think, perhaps, that you made a mistake in leaving Porto Claro at that point, because you possibly could have talked the people into restoring the monarchy when a hint of political scandal came along. In the Republic's view (I believe this is fair to say), and to most outsiders, you abandoned Porto Claro, not the other way around, and in politics, truth is what the people believe...!
<Harold>
<Harold> December 1997?
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold> I will not argue the point too much, because I was busy helping Orange get off the ground...
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> No. That time WE had a plebiscite about Federalism and Monetary System.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> No, there were not, Jean.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold> I was sure there was a vote in there somewhere, between December 1997 and March 1998.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> It's that simple: I held a revolution (coup) and recovered my LEGITIMATE RIGHT to rule Porto Claro they way I want. Then I expelled them all and they decided to follow on as if nothing had happened.
<Harold> How many Portoclarians went along with you when you set up the Kingdom? As I recall, there were about 30 Portoclarians left after Orange independence.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> This is called (oops, let me check the dictionary) PLAGIARISM.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> None. I wanted THEM ALLLLL out.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> But, Jean, Orange is ANOTHER nation. They pretend to be PORTO CLARO!
<Harold> I totally agree ... !
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> And they're not.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> It's not theirs, it's MINE.
<Harold> But I also believe that you cannot persuade anyone, even me, that you could singlehandedly kick out every last Portoclarian from their country. The only way I can see for the Kingdom of Porto Claro to be recognized is either to come to terms with the Republic, or for one of you to change their name.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold> Prior to February 11, 1997, yes, it was yours.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> They will have to change their name, sooner or later, because I'll have it registered in Justice.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> Prior and AFTER MORE THAN EVER! :-)
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold> Uh, Pedro, doesn't that seem just a bit ironic. A micronation exists from a desire to create a separate country, but you want to run to Brazil to force Porto Claro to bend to your will?
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> Well, I wouldn't need to do it if they didn't insist to run a THING that INDEED is a micronation, but simply IS NOT Porto Claru (in its entire meaning).
<Harold> Have you made any attempt to negotiate with the Republic?
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> Yes. Through Octávio Villarinho, the only sensitive guy I know there.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> I'm calling Filipe to this chat, OK?
<Harold> They have a new chancellor now, Pablo Rojas (there's more, but I forget what)...
<Harold> Absolutely!
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> This Pablo Rojas makes me sick.
<Pedro Aguiar> He doesn't even know me, but he started attacking me since the very first time he got my e-mail.
<Pedro Aguiar> I never answered him.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> Latino-Americano, Filipe.
<Filipe> Hi, Jean!
<Filipe>
<Harold> Hello, Filipe. I was running a Save on this chat...
<Harold>
<Filipe> Aguiar, I just did a logo, with Ibero Americano...shit... :-)
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar> Oh... :-(
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold> Your logo is advertising shit???! :-))
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> !!! HAAHAHAAHAHAHAH
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> "Made in Caramboland"
<Harold> Sorry, Filipe, I could not resist...
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> :-)))
<Filipe> hehehehe...ok, it was fun! :-)
<Filipe>
<Harold> What is Ibero-Americano?
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> We are founding a micropatriological institute for Latin America.
<Pedro Aguiar> Me and Filipe (yet).
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> You've heard of it? How?
<Filipe> An Institute. For micropatriologist
<Harold> Ah, yes, I have heard of the project beginning, I believe from Réunian sources...
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold> Someone in Réunion....!
<Pedro Aguiar> Reunian? Strange... I just talked about it with Filipe...
<Harold>
<Filipe> Did you've heard? Wow...someone have a big mouth.
<Harold> Well, whatever.
<Harold>
<Filipe>
<Harold> Filipe, how do you understand that Porto Claro became a Republic?
<Harold>
<Filipe> Jean, did you like the Draft?
<Filipe>
<Harold> (I'll take your question next)
<Harold>
<Harold> When?
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> Filipe... those are NOT "portoclarians". Those are Carambolas.
<Filipe> Well, I understand the portoclarians made a referendum about it. In march.
<Filipe>
<Harold> Did anything strike you as odd about that referendum, or anything that would make you suspect that it was unfair or did not reflect the will of the Portoclarian people?
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> The PORTOCLARIANS are Barbara, Henry, Ronaldo etc.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Filipe> No, the people that now called themselves Portoclarians always wanted to be a republic governenment.
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar> If this was after the Revolution, they weren't Portoclarians anymore.
<Pedro Aguiar> Right.
<Harold> Then (and I am not a lawyer), you would say that Pedro and the monarchists abandoned Porto Claro after the vote?
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> Never!
<Filipe> The monarchists went to Orange or to the Kingdom of the Porto Claro, with Aguiar.
<Filipe>
<Harold> Very interesting!
<Pedro Aguiar> The Revolution happened in February 11th... if you say this "referendum" was in march...
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold> It sounds as though the monarchists abandoned hope that their position could prevail in Portoclarian politics...
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> NEW COUNTRY??????????????????????????????????????????????
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> The ONLY "new" country was that so-called republic!!!
<Filipe> Before the referendum. The kingdom started as a new country in february. Of course Aguiar knows, since january, that the republic will win.
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> Yes, but I held a coup.
<Harold> Well, Filipe, at least we agree...
<Harold>
<Harold> Your coup failed, Pedro.
<Harold> The Bolsheviks' coup succeeded, Pedro.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> I told Jean it was just like the Bolsheviks did in 1917 (November). They were minority, right? But they took power.
<Harold> Even though they were a minority.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> Mine did too.
<Filipe> Aguiar, I agree that the name is yours, but I can't disagree with history facts. And you know the Kingdom is a consequence of the supremacy of the republicans in the "old" Porto Claro.
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Filipe> Jean, what do you think about it the kingdom of PC?
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar> Wait, Jean!
<Harold> I began this discussion by suggesting that it was illegitimate, because of this so-called coup. I believe that Pedro gave up his rights to Porto Claro on February 11, 1997 (when I became Prime Minister), in a commitment to rule by the people.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> Are you sure the correct date was February 11th??????????
<Harold> I do not wish to seem callous, but life is hard.
<Harold> I may be off by a day or two either way, but my memory quite distinctly remembers it as February 11.
<Harold>
<Filipe> That's true...but he regrets so much about it!
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar> What an extraordinary coincidence!!! That's exactly the date of the Revolution!
<Pedro Aguiar> Then that "out-of-control era" lasted EXACTLY an year... wow...
<Filipe> After one year, exactly? Wow...
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar> You're cloning me, Filipe... :-)
<Pedro Aguiar> Out of MY control. :-)
<Filipe> Out of control...I can't agree. Oh, yes, your control, ok. Out of control after november, I guess.
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold> I suggested to Pedro that the only way for the Kingdom to be recognized (consistent with our understanding of human rights) is (1) to somehow come to terms with the Republic, or (2) to change its name.
<Harold>
<Filipe> Jean, as we are talking about recognizes, Vanesia sent a message to us.
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar> That "republic" MUST CHANGE THEIR NAME.
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> Now see, Jean.
<Harold> I have no problem with that. There is no existing micronation named Lafayette.
<Pedro Aguiar> What if I founded a micronation now called "the Empire of Lafayette" and said "My own is the true Lafayette!" And EVERYTHING in my micronation was different from yours.
<Harold>
<Filipe> Aguiar, you know that there are just one way to force them to change the name...
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar> BUT IF THERE WERE, Jean. Please make things easier.
<Pedro Aguiar> WHAT IF YOU had a micronation called REpublic of Lafayette now.
<Pedro Aguiar> What if the "Empire" didn't want to negotiate?
<Harold> Then we would have to work out some kind of a deal, wouldn't we? Then we would have the kind of impasse you are suffering now. Sure, it would hurt, but that's life.
<Harold>
<Harold> What were you going to say, Filipe?
<Harold>
<Filipe> Hehehehe...
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Harold> We can talk, but you know that any negotiation with the Kingdom will torpedo any hope of peace with the Republic. Unless you have some kind of a "Taiwan" solution up your sleeve...
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> Yes, but HOW would you solve the problem?
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> Oh, I do!
<Harold> We're working on it, Pedro...
<Harold>
<Filipe> Well, I said we can talk with them about recognizes and, maybe, relationship.
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar> But, you know, China doesn't accept the other Taiwan to be recognized at the same time as her.
<Filipe> Pedro, Vanesia is a "Order", right? They are not a Kingdom or something...
<Filipe>
<Harold> That's true, but they quietly allow it to exist.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> Yes, it is. Why are you asking this, Filipe?
<Filipe> Because they sent a message to Orange, last week.
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar> But they're inspired by the Order of Malta (do not confound with the Republic of Malta)
<Pedro Aguiar> Oyapockdam
<Filipe> Hehehehe...Oijapock and Pirraines...it sounds strange.
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar> Filipe, the name was not Annestadt, but Annestaadt.
<Pedro Aguiar> In Dutch, it's spelled with AA.
<Filipe> Oyapockdam is the new city. I know, Pedro, we'll correct it.
<Filipe>
<Harold> Here is an idea. Orange owns a small enclave on the west bank of the Oiyapoque (oops, we're more Dutch now.. Oijapock) that was never part of Porto Claro. What if we worked on a three-party negotiation that gives that enclave to the Kingdom of Porto Claro (which at least is contiguous to Porto Claro), in return for peace and recognition of all.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> Why would I have to move instead of them?
<Harold> I claim nothing except that it is a possible negotiating position.
<Harold>
<Harold> Pedro, if you are not willing to reason at all, you will not get support from anyone.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> THey don't. It's easy to see it: just read what Pablo Rojas says.
<Filipe> Jean, you are forgotting something...do you know if the republic wants to make peace with us and with Pedro?
<Pedro Aguiar> But Jean, MY PORTO CLARO IS THE LEGITIMATE ONE!!!!! AAAARRRRGHH1
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Filipe> That's what I said to you, Jean. Pablo just want to ignore us, he wants nothing but the end of the mutual aggression, but he don't want a peace treaty or recognize Orange.
<Filipe>
<Harold> On the other hand, again, thinking out loud... if the Republic is so unreasonable, perhaps we should not recognize either one!!!!
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar> But WHY if MINE is reasonable enough?
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> Nothing. Should it? China doesn't. And the US are in quite good relations with them.
<Harold> What does this say in terms of democracy and human rights? Or are we just going to cynically follow a foreign policy based narrowly on national interest with no moral considerations at all?
<Harold>
<Filipe> That's the point, Jean. If the republic don't care about us and the Kingdom does, what Orange must do?
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar> Second option is the best.
<Pedro Aguiar> Fellas, I gotta go.
<Pedro Aguiar> It's beginning my favourite TV show.
<Harold>
<Pedro Aguiar>
<Pedro Aguiar> No é. It's spelled Leal.
<Filipe> What is the moral consideration that the republic has with Orange?
<Filipe>
<Pedro Aguiar> Bye.
<Harold> That it is in the Republic's national interest to have Orange at peace with it. That they do not want to be harrassed by our Guerilla Muito Léal, etc... (excuse my French)
<Harold>
<Harold> That is understandable. Porto Claro lost 1/3 of its population while they were in power.
<Harold>
<Filipe> The Green Party, in the republic, hate us until now, do you know that?
<Filipe>
<Filipe> Jean, in few weeks the republic will show their version of the history of Porto Claro, including the "november crisis". It will be a good ocasion to see what they think about Orange.
<Filipe>
<Harold> They can hate us, as long as they respect the truth, and in this instance, the truth can be verified.
<Harold>
<Harold> My point exactly.
<Harold>
<Filipe> I can accept a lot of things with they respect the truth. I can admit Pirraines belongs to them, I can sign a peace treaty instead, with they respect the truth. I don't want to be called a "betrayal" anymore by them, just it.
<Filipe>
<Harold> We moved to Cabo Orange exactly because we did not want to start a civil war in Porto Claro.
<Harold>
<Filipe> Exactly.
<Filipe>
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The Tisserand Museum
October, 2000