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ICQ Chat Save file 
Started on Wed Aug 19 18:18:45 1998

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<Emperor Claudio I> Hello, Harold! How are you, my friend?
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> Just fine, and you?
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> I'm fine, too. Just scanned some pictures of Aguiar, Minister Rodrigues (Of Plan Cifra) and I.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> So, have you ever gotten to a conclusion on that "Union" matter?
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> Not yet, but I fear it is close. The sentiment seems to be strongly in favor of it.
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> As I was talking to you on the other day, I don't think it would change much.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> Claudio, I like and respect you very much. I really have nothing against Reunion, either, but I have to wonder about your understanding of human nature.
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> not really, because lots of Reunians will "move" to Orange.....
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> Reunion is very attractive for its discussion groups, several parties, and high levels of activity. I cannot blame anyone for wanting to get in on that. The result, however, is that it will draw Orangers away from Orange. It is (however unintentional) a swift death.
<Harold> 
<Harold> Why would they want to?
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> Because they wish to participate in the Laranjian DEMOCRATIC government; that's why Orange will get some activity. That's the plan.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> For all your talk of absolutism, you are telling me that in practice, Reunion is NOT democratic???
<Harold> 
<Harold> I have no disagreement with that...
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> Well, Harold. Reunion has INDIRECT elections and Counselors appointed by myself. Which means... The people only vote for qualicates, which have the sole purpose of appointing a premier, whose decisions are theorectically submitted to my approval. Reunion is NOT absoilutist, however, it is POTENTIALLY absolutist, as I like to say. But Orange will remain the way it is right now.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Emperor Claudio I> People who wish to act in a more democratic environment will probably move to Orange; and Remain Reunian.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> How would you see your role as sovereign of Orange?
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> I haven't had a chance to read your constitution, but those will be my functions, plus nobility affairs.
<Emperor Claudio I> And of course, I will have things to say, but no control over the institutions.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> Let me help you a bit with a quick introduction. The Constitution (with respect to the Moderator power) was designed to enable the Prince(ss) to do nothing; therefore, it is vested in a 3-member Council of State, one appointed by the Prince(ss) [or you], one by the Secretary-General (who is directly elected), and one by the Foresters. They could veto legislation, but do not have to vote on it (in which case it is automatically approved). 
<Harold> 
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> I like it. See, Harold, I don't want to have control over Orange; that's EXACTLY why I think the Union will be good. The thirsty democrats will have a place to work and live, still being Reunians, still being my subjects. They'll be able to participate in what they want....
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> How many "thirsty democrats" do you think you have?
<Emperor Claudio I> Well, I'd say 10 very active ones.
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Emperor Claudio I> Plus, it will NOT be forbidden participation on BOTH micronations. After all, Orange will be a "sovereign part of the Empire"
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "forbidden participation on BOTH micronations"...
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> oh. I mean that people will eb able to hold publci positions in both micronations.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Emperor Claudio I> public, even.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> I still have one concern, and that I shall have to research on my own -- that is, whether the micronational movement is willing to consider Orange sovereign on that basis. 
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> well, to help on that, I am writing an essay (a short one) on what a Protectorate is, accordingly to International Law.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> One solution might be to write into the treaty an escape clause allowing Orange to secede in the future.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> 
<Harold> ;-)
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> Well, Orange will be able to seceed anyway. And secceed is not applicable, because you are not exactly an unit inside a federation.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> Nor are we part of a unitary state.
<Harold> 
<Harold> My concern is with the external perception, not yours, Claudio.
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> Indeed. You will be ANOTHER micronation. Not the same one. ANOTHER. Research on Bhutan + India, and even the English cases.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> More practically, whether we can get our own seat in the LOSS.
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> Well, as I always say, it's not my fault if people don't know s* about law. ;-) A professor of mine likes to say that, off the record. ;-)
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> I wonder why "off the record" :-)
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> because of the s* ? ;-)
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> Whatever...
<Harold> 
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> Well, we must try to convince them of what Intl Law says. And try to make them see that it's a LOT like England vs. Australia.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> (Which may become an independent Republic in 2-3 years... ;-) )
<Emperor Claudio I> *shiver*
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> Of course, you could tweak Mr. Lawless and say the same thing about NEW ZEALAND... ;-)
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> LOL. But have you become more... "open" to the idea?
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> 
<Harold> I remain skeptical, for the reason I outlined at the beginning; but less hostile. 
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> I know of THREE CITIZENS who want to participate in Orange already. 
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> Let me say this: Except for one e-mail to Andre Pfeiffer that was being written before we got together, I have said all I can possibly say about the proposed Union. As I indicated earlier, I am a bit skeptical, but public opinion among those of us who are active, is strongly favorable. 
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> Well, I must say I am happy with that. 
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> One more question, what would be your Laranjian title? Prince of Orange?
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> People somehow tend to think we want to "eat up" other nations, that's not true! 
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Emperor Claudio I> No. Grand-Protector of Orange
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> Because Orange will be a Protectorate
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> (Sorry yeccch!!!!)
<Harold> 
<Harold> I know why, but still, yeccch!
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> well, people didn't want "Emperor of Reunion and Orange" . 
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Emperor Claudio I> have you suggested that? I like it too, and don't see a problem at all.
<Emperor Claudio I> 
<Harold> No, but I was thinking "Emperor of Reunion and Prince of Orange", in the same formulation that Queen Victoria was Queen of Great Britain, etc., and Empress of India.
<Harold> 
<Harold> This would also make it unnecessary for us to change our Constitution.
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> hm. let me alk to andré
<Harold> Sounds good to me.
<Harold> 
<Emperor Claudio I> see you later!!
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The Tisserand Museum
October, 2000